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Three Huzzahs for house rules! So in my sense, it would be rational to say that all that stuff took place , or so years ago in a vastly different region of material plane space, and has no reference here except as planar age precedent. I believe this is one reason why they always refer to events as occuring either "recently" or "aeons ago" rather than give specific dates that and dealing with the issue of time and the multiverse and that whole can of worms. In short, the only thing of importance is the age of the Prime Material and the transitive planes which are directly connected to the Prime Material Plane.

Can of worms, anyone? That, and time is all an illusion, and bent by the whims of the gods anyways, so what point is there in trying to balance to other realms of existence where time may or may not work the same at all anyways? I can tell you only that time does not seem to be an issue for Nym in any of the following regards: I also find that this helps to clear up issues of when did this happen, and how did it affect the current setting… Simple: Divinities are created by the beliefs of mortals, immortals, otherworldly entities and creative divine forces that enjoy seeing sentient mortal and immortal life flourish.

Divinities can be created from divinities, and this can of course include outsiders, or even other types of creatures that ascend to divine status or take on the Outsider type in some form as well. Inner Planes formed first, and gave rise to the materials of the other planes by lawful and chaotic means — all good. It came through a transitive plane like seepage, or a meaningful distribution — also good. I believe any form of belief could have created the outer planes, including the divinities themselves. They would have required no resources save ideas and intention in divinely Morphic regions of the cosmos.

In that sense, the Pyrrothian Cosmology takes over on Nym as a sort of new 4e precedent for how cosmologies may interact and how that will take form. In any case, if something happens now, it might happen both in the future and in the past if time is in any way cyclic, which means that it might be relived a million times and not even go half its lifespan.

Time is the illusion here, and it is created through the quantum effects of Paradox and Paradigm.

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Things have happened both better and worse, and they have happened both in the past and in the future — it is all a matter of subjective experience. Here we go now: You hit the nail right on the head, Mechalich. You bring up a lot of arguable points in the final part of this posting, but it would be really off-topic for me to debate them. I think the real issue of what is within the power centers of the planes and which ones are major avatars of the divinities is a major one, but not necessary here. The outer planes are base on belief, but it could have been the beliefs of the divinities and immortals that preceded mortal history and our current understanding of reality.


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I think the planes have their own history, regardless of their attachment to or history with other Prime worlds — and though this may sometimes overlap well, sometimes it might go against the grain. I also note that in Manual of the Planes it says that all the other planes run off the Material Prime like a clock. However, it does not say that their timelines are the same — merely that the material plane is the standard by which all other clocks are set, such as with time zones and an atomic clock set in one time zone. Zeus is a god, yet Hercules — his demigod son — was born of a mortal and yet is a Demigod with Divine Rank of 5.


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I feel that any mortal has the potential to become an immortal, and that any immortal may find the inclination to pursue further steps of divinity. In that sense, the divinities could have come from literally anywhere. The planes exist and the Prime exists, so it is here. Jared is exactly right, even though I am not using this to back up a time-oriented basis of my background storyline and historical events for dinopriminals and guardinals… They are different in appearance and archetype from the guardinals and from the Animal Lords in every way, and in no way correlating to some Prime reality as representations of their eras in history — some of them just happen to be archetypes of dinosaurs and prehistoric animals, and they protect nature and its protectors as well.

Dinopriminals have the Native subtype on both the Nymian Beastlands Prime world , and the Beastlands outer plane , but are Extraplanar on Elysium unlike the Guardinals. This is why when travelling between some planes it is possible to warp or negate time altogether planes which do not have the Normal Time trait. I know I covered this before, but I had to reply to this in stages to get it all down.

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I subscribe to the Mage version of Paradox, and its variant counterpart, Paradigm, when it comes to looping, replaying, rewriting, or otherwise messing with history or when cleaning up messy storyline elements when messed up mid-game or further into a campaign when doing flashback information, etc. When things mess up or go wrong, or need to have multiple outcomes, it manifests as Paradox and Paradigm. The battle between the two groups apparently raged across the planes and it is quite likely mortals played a significant role in such conflicts, after all the climactic Battle of Pesh occurred on Oerth which raises questions about what is part of Greyhawk nad what is part of Planescape we just don't have the names of such persons passed down.

What is the Rod of Seven Parts, and what is its place? Are Vaati part of planescape SRD by any chance? It sounds familiar, and very similar to the Dvati in Dragon Compendium, Vol. I have never heard of the Battle of Pesh Plus, I am thinking that knowing a little more about the Law vs.

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Chaos war will help me in developing the ancient planar history preceding the Beastlands and related life. Also, do we have another example here of a mortal race which tended in a certain direction and took up the Outsider type after some point? I understand Obyriths, and how they relate. Chaos conflict, since that may also help me from another angle — the languages which we considered earlier, and the Grammaticum Primeaval…?

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I know about Rilmani from the 3e Fiend Folio — what are the Kalmarel? Modrons are being replaced, but not by the Formians or by the Inevitables — which have other motivations in both cases. More homebrew in the background. I covered this, I think. I like the Obyriths from what I know of them. A few others right now are making Mesozoic Obyriths based on DeviantArt images they liked from a contest.


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Here is what I wanted to hear: However, as storyteller and knower of the history of this world, I can easily say that the known history of Nym is nearly , years, the human-comprehensible portion of that being quite minimal since most humans on Nym are savage or of a similarly primitive but sentient race.

Divinity is divinity is divinity, regardless of where it comes from.

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I will always have divinity in my games as a player-attainable, balanced system of non-class progression and caste progressions toward Divine Rank of 0 to 1 and beyond. That being said, there will always be deities, no matter who they are called or what they look like or grant to their worshippers — divinity came before mortality.

Though I do not believe any Cthuuloid entities control the cosmos from above in this particular campaign setting, something akin to them as an overdiety or pantheon of far-ascended divinity surely exists to divvy out divine rank here and there where legends are born and prophecies of divinity made in honor of a name or simile. We have to make it all up homebrew and hope it fits with the kinks in the chain. Maybe in the process of developing the dinopriminals on the other forum it will help in exploring some of the other considerations in dealing with these particular elements.

Plus, one final point I did not cover yet: We as DMs know both what is happening as well as what did and will or might happen in the future. That technically makes us the Overdeities. With that said, and a tongue in cheek: Such is the case in my Epicene experiment: If given the opportunity to achieve immortality and take steps to escape the destruction, what will occur in a game?

It was a huge success, I might add. Apocalypse Ground Zero is the way to go, I promise you. Those were some of the most memorable game sessions EVER. For the record, I put everyone's name in here with username, and my responses are in between the badly formatted text. I had to compose it in Word - there was so much to consider.

A lot of the stuff you find at Pandius. Officially, the gith races are descended from humans enslaved by the illithids mentioned as recently as Dungeon Magazine , but part of their original descriptions in the 1st edition Fiend Folio tome and altered using illithid science on their artificial world, Penumbra.

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Now, there's a race called the gith found in Athas, the Dark Sun campaign setting, who do resemble crosses between elves and lizardfolk. The adventure Black Spine revealed that they were actually descended from githyanki who had been mutated by a psionic bomb set by their githzerai enemies, causing them to degenerate into a reptilian bestial form and strand them on Athas. The groups involved with the primal Law and Chaos conflict include the obyriths and their tanar'ri slaves , the eladrins, the vaati also known as the Wind Dukes of Aaqa , and the "angels" led by Asmodeus according to Fiendish Codex II.

The ancient Baatorians don't seem to have been involved. The single adult specimen seen in Planescape canon in Hellbound: The Blood War looked like an enormous worm made of pure darkness, which mortal PCs were unable to harm except with wish spells or the equivalent. These days they mostly sleep beneath the layers of Maladomini or Malbolge they're the ones responsible for the strange buzzing beneath the caverns of Malbolge, which keeps the baatezu away.